Curse

HalPlantagenet · May 16, 2007, 02:52 AM // 02:52

First, I'd prefer not to start another rant thread. Rather, I'm looking for constructive strategies anyone might be willing to share.

As we all know by now, interuption is, at least, more challenging in Hard Mode. My own experience (16 or 25 Tyrian missions completed) is rather dismal. Individual interupts rarely suceed even when properly timed and Choking Gas seems more like Clear Throat. I've also tried interupts from secondary professions (Ritualist and Mesmer) without much success but my investigation has hardly been comprehensive.

Does anyone have any suggestions? They would be much appreciated. Thanks all. Rangers lead the way.

SnipiousMax · May 16, 2007, 04:33 AM // 04:33

About the only interrupt I've had much luck with is BHA + MM with fiends. The fiends provide plenty of physical hits, if not the most precise and controllable ones. Everything else is extremely tedious, and hardly effective.

uby · May 16, 2007, 04:40 AM // 04:40

are you using choking gas with an IAS??
still works great for me ...

Ayano Mitsu · May 16, 2007, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by uby

are you using choking gas with an IAS??
still works great for me ...

Works great for me as well.

moko · May 16, 2007, 06:23 AM // 06:23

*watches sf being used by boss*
*1*
*dshot*
"oh, what a surprise, it hit"

counting still works, it's just not too effective anymore. in HM, you either got to be a choking gas, or you forget the interrupts and go prepared shot/kindle/conjure for damage.

can still carry an interrupt for rare cases you can hit one. :x

bha usually doesn't help either (mass condition removal, it's still a 1/4 cast through it, etc)

Sir Mad · May 16, 2007, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

About the only interrupt I've had much luck with is BHA + MM with fiends. The fiends provide plenty of physical hits, if not the most precise and controllable ones. Everything else is extremely tedious, and hardly effective.

Yes, definitely. I always pack BHA when I vanquish - I think a char to shut down the most dangerous enemies is really needed. Generally, something like: BHA, Throw Dirt, Serpent's Quickness and maybe Epidemic (especiallywith a barrager) works very well.

Otherwise the interuption strategies remain the same. Everything's about anticipating the skills your oponent's gonna use.

XvArchonvX · May 16, 2007, 01:37 PM // 13:37

I would agree that BHA is the way to go in HM. Pets also come in handy when traveling with BHA and a MM since they provide additional physical hits against dazed enemies as well as fuel for the MM when they die.

SnipiousMax · May 16, 2007, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

bha usually doesn't help either (mass condition removal, it's still a 1/4 cast through it, etc)

See, here is the difference between using something like choking gas and using BHA. In all honesty, I've never had problems with condition removal, as it's pretty rare to run into a mob that has multiple monks, and the monk is usually the first to get shutdown.

1.) BHA dazes the target, which makes them cast slower in addition to them being interrupted by physical attacks.

2.) Using a MM with Bone Fiends and a BHA ranger exploits a group dynamic that using Choking Gas doesn't. Specificly, Fiends pump out alot of physical attacks. Granted you can't control who they target, but between them, a physical damage dealer and you, there is a large number of physical attacks raining down on the target.

I still think choking gas would work, but I'd invest in a shortbow, and keep yourself pretty close to your target to assure that your arrow flight time is really low.

moko · May 16, 2007, 02:24 PM // 14:24

who cares about frontline?

i'm a ranger, not a squishy, i have awesome ele armor, good physical armor and i have [skill]Natural Stride[/skill], nothing can kill me. =P

plus in HM it's very idiotic if you get the monks first -- usually they just suck at healing themselves and let their party die way too easily which deals most of the damage. just leave them to the end and daze important casters if anything.

second, not everyone can roll a MM, and some don't prefer to, because MM suck in HM (if you plan on using fiends -- if you use horrors to bomb them that's a different story, but ranged minions suck, they hardly do damage, nor do they tank)

Quote:

1.) BHA dazes the target, which makes them cast slower in addition to them being interrupted by physical attacks.

HM monsters all have faster cast, making it basically a normal mode cast, and if it's a boss that's doubled again, so usually it's still way to hard.

also, casters like to mob, making it really easy for choking gas.

but still, i prefer damage over interruption by now, of course a dhsot or savage won't hurt but it's way too hard to be effective by now.

SnipiousMax · May 16, 2007, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

who cares about frontline?

Yea, we agree here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

plus in HM it's very idiotic if you get the monks first -- usually they just suck at healing themselves and let their party die way too easily which deals most of the damage. just leave them to the end and daze important casters if anything.

I was responding to the 'mass condition removal' comment. Obviously, monks aren't always the biggest threat. Quite often, however, they make things much longer and more tedious then they should be. They can't heal themselves very well, so there's no point in not finishing them off initially to make the rest of the fight easier. Yes you can power through their meger attempts at keeping their team alive, but it results in a longer than neccesary engagement. Were they better tanks than healers, then yes, obviously, you want to respond to the bigger threats first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

second, not everyone can roll a MM, and some don't prefer to, because MM suck in HM (if you plan on using fiends -- if you use horrors to bomb them that's a different story, but ranged minions suck, they hardly do damage, nor do they tank)

They're still good for the same reasons they've always been good. Of course they don't work in all areas with all teams... but they still soak up damage, and they deal a healthy amount of damage. They don't deal as much damage as before, but nothing physical does. Might as well say that warriors suck in Hard Mode. Fiends were an example, but a necro with Jagged Bones can keep an 10 minion army up idefinately despite the increased damage. While still puming out alot of physical hits. Certainly more than a team of 8 could do without them. Like everything it requires some insight into your team build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

HM monsters all have faster cast, making it basically a normal mode cast, and if it's a boss that's doubled again, so usually it's still way to hard.

Okay. HM monsters cast 33-50% faster (per wiki, I don't know if it's 33 or 50). Daze makes you cast 100% slower. That means a hard mode monster is still casting 50-67% slower than a NM monster. Your point stands about bosses, but I'd contend that choking gas would suffer in a similar fashion.

Do not misunderstand me. I still agree that Choking Gas can be very effective, but I wouldn't dismiss BHA as worthless.

You did touch on the heart of this discussion though, hard interrupts are not nearly as effective as they were in normal mode. It's not too much of chore to carry around d.shot for the occasional lucky shot... but the standard two interrupt ranger I've been using throughout the three chapters isn't as effective as I'd like it to be in Hard Mode. It's forcing me to re-think my Ranger's primary function.

HalPlantagenet · May 16, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

...It's forcing me to re-think my Ranger's primary function.

Exactly. We've done the first 16 HM missions and bonuses maximizing damage and exercising our brilliant kiting skills but, nevertheless, I feel there has to be more to life and I doubt it can be successful in the later missions. We're now at Elona's Reach where minimizing the number of groups you do is important and I find myself longing for a more elegant and efficient approach.

Thank you for the BHA + MM recomendation. For certain situations it sounds like exactly the right thing. We've been able to make effective use of an MM in some missions but because of the afore-mentioned nature of ER I doubt it will be the proper solution there. But we will definitely try it.

Yes, I've been using an IAS (Flail and Lightning Reflexes) with Choking Gas with more than questionable results. But I will try switching to my short bow which I haven't been doing.

Thanks all for your help and any additional recommendations will of course be welcome.

XvArchonvX · May 17, 2007, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by HalPlantagenet

Yes, I've been using an IAS (Flail and Lightning Reflexes) with Choking Gas with more than questionable results. But I will try switching to my short bow which I haven't been doing.

Flurry + Needling Shot + Shortbow is the best way to do it. Flail is nice, but can't be kept up constantly on a war secondary (unless using barrage) and Needling Shot will give you an even greater rate of fire against foes with less than 50% health.

uby · May 17, 2007, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Flail + Needling Shot + Shortbow is the best way to do it. Flail is nice, but can't be kept up constantly on a war secondary (unless using barrage) and Needling Shot will give you an even greater rate of fire against foes with less than 50% health.

I personally advocate Frenzy. It's energy based, cheap, and lasts 8 seconds with 4 second recharge. Very very easy to cancel if you come under fire. Since it's unlinked, you can focus your points into Expertise/Marks/Wilderness.

XvArchonvX · May 17, 2007, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by uby

I personally advocate Frenzy. It's energy based, cheap, and lasts 8 seconds with 4 second recharge. Very very easy to cancel if you come under fire. Since it's unlinked, you can focus your points into Expertise/Marks/Wilderness.

Oops, I mean to type Flurry and just corrected it in my post, but Frenzy isn't a bad choice either as long as you have a good cancel stance and know how to use it.

Perfected Shadow · May 17, 2007, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Frenzy near the front lines in HM? Have you tried:
[card]Heket's Rampage[/card] ?

XvArchonvX · May 17, 2007, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow

Frenzy near the front lines in HM? Have you tried:
[card]Heket's Rampage[/card] ?

Heket's Rampage can't be kept up constantly without a big investment into beastmastery and will also end if you use Savage Shot or Needling Shot (two skills that have good synergy in a Choking Gas bar.

Amy Awien · May 17, 2007, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Mhh, Needling Shot doesn't need an IAS, assuming you use it for it's instant recharge. No Savage Shot is a disadvantage, but might not be so bad.

Do pet attackskills cancel Heket's Rampage?

XvArchonvX · May 17, 2007, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Mhh, Needling Shot doesn't need an IAS, assuming you use it for it's instant recharge. No Savage Shot is a disadvantage, but might not be so bad.

Savage allows for interuption of non-spell skills since Choking only affects spells. If can also be used to send choking gas at the exact moment you wish to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Do pet attackskills cancel Heket's Rampage?

Yes it does, which is one of the several reasons why I seldom touch the skill.

Teh [prefession]-zorz · May 18, 2007, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Spinal Shivers necro + cold weapon

Falconer · May 18, 2007, 12:47 AM // 00:47

I find dazed works the best in HM. But that's moreso due to the lack of good condition removal in most PvE mobs. And if they do have it... learn it, love it, and distract it!

Also for HM on the mesmers... I've found having frustration helps a lot. But not a lot of people get what I like to call two man 'buddy' combos going. EG: I'll tag-team w/ one other player to take down something while the other 6 go about their business.

Just for the record... my typical bar in HM ranger has been.

14exp (11+3), 12/14marks(10+1+1/3), 11(10+1)wild
Burning Arrow*, needling, RtW, concussion, dshot, LR/NS/dust trap, Troll, hard rez has worked reasonably well as a baseline GP build for me.
(I have gloves of minor/superior marks which I switch out if I need more/less life in PvE). Druids armor.

Since they finally brought needling shot back up to usability. It's great DPS skill in HM (higher level enemies w/ high AL... all armor ignoring damage... win win). And once you get that monk dazed... use your zealous string and just keep spamming... if you see him use something like signet of devotion distract it.

This is less of a direct interupt strategy, but more of a team support strategy. (14exp, 13/15surv. 11/11/8 distro). As you can tell it's an offensive 'combat trapper' (stance tank, trapper combo)
Smoke Trap*, barbed trap, flame trap, dust trap, Lightning Ref/Nat Stride, Whirling Def, Healing Spring/troll, lightbringer rez.
Again I keep two pairs of survival boots (one minor, one superior... to swap in as HP/tanking requires).

Works best when paired w/ a daggers/swords/axeman. But you go in right after the initial tanks and turn into a stance tank. (lightning ref for 11s, whirling for 19s, LR for another 11s... that's 41s of tanking time. With 19s of 'downtime' and also over 20s of nearby 'blind' time. It's really amusing because you can actually get whirling defense going for some pretty impressive DPS against the wands, arrows, and spears that inevitably get tossed at you.

I've also been known to pull out items from the old-school cripshot playbook. domination ranger. (prepared shot, diversion!, blackout). Those were good skills for PvP back before nerfs, and while not PvP grade anymore, they still work in PvE! Occassionally, have fun w/ the 'double debilitator'.

I've also been known to go barrage/smite. Scourge healing is rediculous amount of fun in PvE

. Orison... bwahahaha... go ahead orison yourself for all of 10 points or so. Too bad, you can't do a ranged 'smite' anymore and get expertise on it... (changed from 'attack' w/ any weapon to a spell).

Those last two are more of 'disruption' as opposed to 'interupt' strategies which I only included as they're closely related. You don't always need to absolutely shut down the target, but merely render it inefficient.

Edit:
Interesting idea spinal shivers. Ages ago there was a marksman's wager, spinal shivers combo that was used. And since wager got that duration buff, it's probably usable again. (you should be reaping in more energy per hit than shivers takes...). But overall, I can't see it being better than choking/practiced unless you have other curses you'd like to bring (you actually will have enough energy w/ wager to cast 10 energy spells regularly even w/ chillblains). (the attack speed reducers, defile flesh (67% healing efficiency) are really about it that I see, barbs is nonfunctional cause you're using cold damage).